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Name: cleetus
Subject: TRASH
-- Nov 30, 2001 at 2:03AM
corey fogel?
do you equate zorn with the beach boys?
hmmmm....
sheaf out.
and p.s. i think hoffman doesn't know anything about anything...including music.
v
Name: Winston Halloway
Subject: Reviewed
-- Dec 23, 2000 at 2:43PM
A good review does not state personal tastes in music or the lack of understanding on distribution/costs. Credibility in this review goes downhill. Please have someone submit a better review.
Name: Annoyed
Subject: ONE MORE!
-- Jul 21, 2000 at 9:22PM
One more, Jordon.
Why did you walk out of a Cobra show? You must have attention deficit syndrome. Do you even know the history or the purpose of his game pieces? Yes, that's plural. Cobra I would say is his most often performed piece, which says something. You're the one who's unhips to what's happening. It's people like you who don't take the appropriate amount of time to really listen and understand. Maybe you're a frustrated musician, that's why you're a "music critic/reviewer." I've always understood why Zorn hates critics. For you, certain parts of Masada is enjoyable--the more jazzy and straight ahead sections. But then when it becomes more complication, that is when things shut down for you. I'm sure that you're going to write a response to us all. You don't know him.
Name: Annoyed
Subject: BTW
-- Jul 21, 2000 at 9:13PM
By the way,
in case you didn't know, it is the producer (s)
who come up with the album ideas for James Carter.
Do you know what I mean?
Of course not. You're not in the music industry.
Name: Annoyed
Subject: Masada not so good?!
-- Jul 21, 2000 at 9:07PM
Who is this reviewer?
Do you even understand how
the music is structured?
Are you even listening?
Obviously your ears have been trained in such a superficial manner that anything complicated goes beyond you.
You suck!
Name: keil winchester
Subject: leather cheetoh souled cole slaw haired ghoul
-- Jun 13, 2000 at 7:27PM
you're a featureless numb gargoyle to stupid to want anything worth a fuck. go see masada, and forgive yourself
Name: J. Kenneth
Subject: Crazeeee!
-- Jul 30, 1999 at 2:05PM
You're still arguing over this album? Sheesh! Old news! It was released back in May. Zorn's put out, like, six or seven albums since then. Please try to keep up with the times.
Name: Corey Fogel
Subject: TRASH!
-- Jul 30, 1999 at 9:45AM
"I don't see how anyone could consider this review unresearched. I listened to the album; that's more than enough research to decide whether or not I liked it. And I DID like it, that's what's so amusing!"
all obnoxious "zest" aside, I think you did a rather poor job of letting this article serve its purpose - EVEN if it was intended to be an article about Masada in general, which it was not. Its sounds like you need to go back to Writing 101 to learn how to develop an essay in a concrete and concise manner. It honestly sounds like you took it as an oppurtunity to randomly vent about Zorn because you've forced yourself to leave his shows early and have been disappointed with the CD investments you've made.
What you did NOT do was talk about the craft of each (or any!) of these particularly stellar musicians, something commonly found in articles that hope to discuss aspects of a band.....since you chose to go askew from just reviewing the CD itself. Discussing the interplay and skill of the members individually and collectively seems all the more necessary when you make the point of saying this is a good "Masada primer". Well for crying out loud, what the fuck do we know about this band now that Jordan Hoffman has shared with us all of complaints and told us how much each of their CDs cost?
basically nothing...not even their names! You chose to piss up and down the page rather than provide a substantial new path of exploration for curious listeners, or an interesting new point of view for familiarized listeners such as myself.
"A problem I have with almost all of Zorn's music is partially evident in this little internet-squabble: very little sense of humour. For pieces like Kristallnacht, that is appropriate. But even the beloved Naked City takes itself so fucking seriously as genius-jazz that to be caught having fun listening to "Peter Gunn" music is, in a way, to be one-upped.
Jordan, you are completely off base. Its that simple. First of all, you are generalizing again with Naked City, and with all of his music. I think if you were as versed in John Zorn's music as you are pretending to be, you would find quite an abundance of humor. Humor can be an abstract device in music; an important aspect of phrasing and inflection. Lets take it one step at a time. Have you listened to Carny? or Nani Nani? or Mystic Fugu Orchestra? The Classic Guide to Strategy? or his contribution to the Serge Gainsbourg tribute on his Tzadik label? Please say you're not a musician, and your lack of radar for humor in music that isnt BLATANTLY SPELLED OUT FOR YOU, like with Frank Zappa, might be excusable. I suppose you think there is no humor in albums like Jazz from Hell since there are no words...in which case it might just be another album of "genius-jazz" that takes itself too fucking seriously.
What Naked City albums have you listened to? "genius-jazz" ?? What are you even talking about anymore? Zorn will say himself how most of Torture Garden/Grand Guingol is inspired by Japanese hardcore, early Napalm Death etc, as well as the desire to write music with many abrupt unexpected changes (no sense of humor here at all, right?) The remainder of Grand Guignol is mostly pieces by CLASSICAL composers. Leng Tch'e is admittedly inspired by a piece by the Melvins, as well as ancient Chinese torture methods. Absinthe is completely ambient and experimental as far as textures and instrumentation. Heretic is a series of trio and duo improvisations, again rather experimental, often times HUMOROUS-sounding; which leaves the self-titled album, and Radio, the liner notes of which list numerous influences. Naked City is as influenced by hardcore, film music, ambient music, cartoon music, metal, rock, and latin as it is by jazz. Its about as "genius-jazz" as you are a genius writer.
Name: Jordan Hoffman Responds
Subject: Re: TRASH (zorn article)
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 11:47PM
Luckily, the chuckle-factor of this delugue of Zorn-derived scorn has left me feeling altogether amused. I'll not fault Corey Fogel or his followers for their zest to critique. I will point out, though, that I am a fan of Mr. Zorn's music, much of the time. Same goes for the so-called "free jazz" idiom, and klezmer, too. In fact, I implore Mr. Fogel and his posse to read my interview with klezmer musician Howard Leshaw, which is right here in this very webzine, somewhere in the "interviews" section.
I don't see how anyone could consider this review unresearched. I listened to the album; that's more than enough research to decide whether or not I liked it.
And I DID like it, that's what's so amusing! I do, though, think it is worth pointing out that there are many Masada CDs out there, all priced at around $22 (none-too-cheap) and difficult to tell from one another by looking at them.
I stand by my comment that John Zorn "saps a lot of energy from you." I've been to one of his ridiculous Cobra "game-shows" and left early. I've also seen Masada perform live and had a swell time. Mr. Fogel, do you listen to Zorn passively, or is it something of a full-consciousness effort? Do you equate Zorn with the Beach Boys?
Is Naked City better known by the general public than Masada? That's debatable, maybe even true, but hardly worth making a stink over. For my money, Zorn's best work is with the Bar Khoba Sextet.
A problem I have with almost all of Zorn's music is partially evident in this little internet-squabble: very little sense of humour. For pieces like Kristallnacht, that is appropriate. But even the beloved Naked City takes itself so fucking seriously as genius-jazz that to be caught having fun listening to "Peter Gunn" music is, in a way, to be one-upped.
The other great "Z" composer of the 20th Century, Frank Zappa, has just as curious and diverse catalogue. . .but remember, he recorded Shut Up And Play Your Guitar---three times! I doubt if any of his ardent fans would be so quick to fly-off-the-handle at a less-than-stellar review. A sense of humour is important in hero-worship.
Rick Lopez asks if I listen to much "challenging" music. I invite him to look at my other reviews and answer that himself. Can Mr. Lopez write cogently on George Gershwin, Tom Waits, Pee Shy, Kris Kristofferson, Ed Palermo, The Gourds and Steve Turre?
Oh, and saxophones and upright bass are still "modern instruments" in my view, in that they've come to the forefront in this century. Given the context of "Middle Eastern"-derived music, it is a perfectly acceptable term. And my grammar is fine. If I start a sentence with And or Because or Which it is for effect, something you, Mr. Fogel, may not understand. I may occasionally slip in spelling & such, but I say to thee--check thine own spelling & grammar in thy Yak. (but I'm always sounding like that).
Peace
Name: OnionPalace
Subject: one more thing
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 11:39PM
Actually now that I see this whole thing from afar, most of these Zorn fans sound like a bunch of little naggy kids. If I was John I would shake my heda and laugh at this whole thing. Why did I get myself involved?
Name: Onionpalace
Subject: Forget it . . .
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 11:36PM
Oh Boy! I didn't see all the other negative comments below, forget I said what I said before, those other people said enough.
Name: OnionPalace
Subject: troll city/Chris as senator
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 11:32PM
I wouldn't call you unhip because you dig James Carter, I'd simply call you a close-minded old man in need of some long hours of good sand-paper masterbation in a nice steaming hot shower. Ahh, that should do it. Maybe that Chris first comment dude could rub your back while your at it. Than we can all be at peace.
Name: Chris who made the first comment
Subject: troll city
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 8:20PM
Didn't I tell you? You can't review just one Zorn album... Otherwise, the Zorn mafia will come to get you.
What's most impressive about the alt.music.zorn.death-to-the-infidel comments is that they're yelling at someone who wrote a favorable review. Hate to see what they would have done if you'd panned the album, if you'd even said anything more negative than "honk in moderation".
Name: nick
Subject: clueless
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 6:44PM
What a load of crap. Badly written, badly researched, lacking in content, full of contradictions and peppered with your own trivial, narrow and subjective views.
Well done, you should be writing for the NME.
Name: Corey Fogel
Subject: TRASH (zorn article)
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 3:44PM
This article....how do I trash thee. let me count the ways:
"John Zorn is one of those guys who saps a lot of energy from you. He isn't happy having just one aesthetic (whereas most artists are lucky enough even to be associated with a particular movement!)"
"one of those guys"?? "isnt happy enough??
You sound bitter and as though you need to reduce his pure genius and natural ability to compose for any musical genre to some childish little game that he should have better things than to play.
"but I think it is safe to say that his work with Masada is what he's known best for."
That is NOT safe to say. Maybe you should check out his discography some time. Masada is the simply the most current of his long- reigning projects, before which he was also quite well known. If you want to say that Masada has given him a bit more notoriety than some of his other projects (because it stands out as "jazz" more than others), fine. But that is still arguable even with the existance of Naked City.
"It is loud free jazz working within a distinct Semitic form."
Ahem, on any given Masada album, they are at least as quiet calm and somber as they is "loud", so please do not generalize a group that has 10+ recordings if you have only listened to 1 double LIVE album. And what, may I ask, is a "Semitic form"?? FLAVOR, is that the word you are looking for? You also use the word "distinct", however, later in the article, you mention Masada being "peppered with the occasional Middle Eastern phrases". Now how on earth does something merely "peppered" with something "occasional" give it such "distinctiveness" ?? Furthermore, those "Middle Eastern" (not that that term could even be slightly applicable given your attempt at a *specific* review when there are dozens of different indigenous styles of music in and around the "Middle East", so try YIDDISH, you dolt) phrases are nearly as "occasional" as the number of tracks on any given Masada CD, so please choose your wording correctly.
"Middle Eastern concepts with modern jazz instruments sometimes happy, sometimes challenging."
What the hell are "modern jazz instruments" ???? Ben Neill's mutant trumpet might be considered a "modern jazz instrument". I didnt think a normal trumpet or the alto saxophone was though.
"Plus the album covers have Hebrew lettering and spooky looking holy relics on them."
More reductionist banter. "spooky-looking"? Are you honestly spooked or are you making a mockery of him? Could it be that whatever "spooky looking" imagery included in the packaging is included for a specific reason, perhaps to appropriately reflect a certain aspect of Jewish Culture, pondered before & during the creation of Masada??
"Which is something of a surprise when you ponder it. Zorn's "new Jewish" music.....<more crap>.."
Great way to start a paragraph, Editor. If you're going to mock things being the "epitome of the Downtown chic", and throw around terms in hopes to express your hipness to the way this music relates to today's Jewish community, please be accurate and use "Radical Jewish", not "new Jewish".
"So bully for Zorn. And, and this is no mere afterthought, the music is often quite good, too."
No mere afterthought? coulda fooled us! You barely speak with any conviction about the musical quality about this group. You mostly drag on with baseless drivel about the message you think Zorn is delivering with this project; And when you're not doing that, you're illustrating your rather in depth (bitter) case study on how much his albums cost.
"the <insert innaccurate musical description here>, will often make me wish I was listening to a straight up klezmer album. Of course, that would grow tiresome eventually, too. And would certainly not be as hip."
"Of course" ??? Many people happen to love "straight up" Klezmer albums. You clearly don't know what you're talking about in this area because there are plenty of groups today who are extremely hip and sound to a more than sufficient degree "straight up". You make it sound like these 2 terms cannot be used anywhere near each other. If you knew anything about modern Jewish music like you pretend to, then Masada might make you want to listen to some or any other "modern" klezmer groups as much as it currently makes you want to listen to a "straight up" group, because in either setting, you would hear your "occasionally pepperred Middle Eastern" phrases, AND you would not have to worry about anything being "eventually tiresome" nor "certainly not as hip".
Get a clue next before you dig yourself into a hole and cover yourself with unfounded bullshit remarks (not to mention poor grammar) about something you've barely explored.
Name: Pat Paulson
Subject: Bad Review
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 5:26AM
Agreed with the above comments. I don't see how anyone could have written a stupider, more annoying review than this if they tried. Or maybe you were trying.
Name: Rick Lopez
Subject: This is a joke, right???
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 3:58AM
Get this dim-down motherfucker off payroll, NOW!
(Oh, wait... it's a "senior editor?!?!")
This is one of the most juvenile buckets of know-nothing swill I've come across in quite some time.
Mr. Corey Fogel: Thank you for saving me so much time and energy by disassembling this nonsense.
Does Mr. Jordan actually listen to much challenging music?
Oi!
Rick Lopez
Name: John
Subject: sh*t for brains
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 3:52AM
Wow, what an unbiased review. How about reviewing the music instead of your retarded ramblings? I would sell my records to Japan first too. Apparantly they are more open minded than Americans such as yourself? Go back and listen to Weather Report or the Rippingtons....
Name: Paul Audino
Subject: Shitty Criticism
-- Jul 29, 1999 at 3:51AM
This is by far the worst
peice of shit review that
I have ever read.
To begin with, the import
Masada CDs are far from
wildly overpriced, costing
about $22 max compared to
$17 for US CDs.
Your writing style is pathetic
and disjointed. It is
incredible to me that
any editor would publish
a peice of work that reads
so poorly, to say nothing
of the (lack of) content.
Masada does not need to
conform to your ideas of
"chic." John Zorn does not
have to honk less becuase
you desire more hipness in his
music. To the editors, how
could you possibly let someone
you so obviously distains
free music review such an album?
Don't quit your proverbial day
job!
Name: Cap'n
Subject: Zorn
-- Jul 6, 1999 at 7:19PM
Fine. But which, then, would be the best Masada album. You say this is it because it is priced to move, but for a few extre sheckles, it seems, greater bounty awaits. Care to fill us in?
Name: Chris
Subject: Zorn
-- Jul 6, 1999 at 4:40AM
Hey -- you know the rule, if you review one Zorn album you have to review them all...
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